Plan B magazine

The point is that on some issues, LDF events that included men could be the equivalent of that kind of inappropriate meeting: it's a community event with very few safeguards and what's important is not that it puts the world to rights but that it makes the women involved feel safe and empowered.



Read back: there are a lot of shoulds in your posts about this.



There's no need to stay away. But could we perhaps talk about LDF per se, instead of whether or not men 'should' be included in feminist activity in general, which is what you're talking about?

I think it would probably be best if I stepped off for a bit. Let other people discuss things. I'll be happy to contribute to discussions of other issues.

I went to an all-dayer that was part of Ladyfest in Leeds a couple of years ago. It was the usual mix of acts I thought were great and some that did nowt for me. What marked it out, I thought, was the atmosphere and the way people behaved towards one another. Nobody was falling over pissed or acting like an arse - like a lot of punk gigs I've been to in that respect, only more so.

The contrast with lairy city-centre Saturday-night Leeds with bladdered lads on the lash was tangible.

So, in terms of creating a space for events where people treat each other with respect, with a tacit understanding of "Thou shalt not act like an arse", I thought it was wonderful. Sad that people need to actively create spaces like this, but wonderful that they do. You never know, it could catch on.

In terms of the workshop side of things and whether men should participate - I think there absolutely should (sorry, WH) be women-only events. In Utopia there'd be no need, but we aren't there yet.

(As an aside, I see parallels sometimes between the concept of "whiteness" and a concept of "maleness": I think a lot of men don't realise how gendered their thinking often is, and it may well be useful to point that out now and again.)

Anyway, one of the bands I play in is doing Ladyfest in Manchester in November and I'm looking forward to it lots. Dunno if we're on the same day as The Slits, but fingers crossed.

Ackh, I'm gonna stay away from talking about things I know absolutely bum-all about in future. Also this thread has made me realise how tiiiiiny my worldview is.
Ah'm sorry to everyone if I'm came across like an ignorant jerk!

I don't know if anything you've said here is anything to do with what I posted, but if it is, and for what it's worth, I'm kind of jealous that these things are less of an issue for you than they are for me.

I'd love to live in a Leeds that's a lot better than it is now, which is one of the reasons I feel I need to stick up for things like Ladyfest. I do genuinely love Leeds, even though it's not my home town, and I wish it was (my own vision of) better.

There's a lot that needs to be done, and living in that reality brings it home. A LOT.

A racist political party is coming to town soon to protest against black rap music outside one of the big record shops. The party is led by the guy who runs that site that targets and incites violence against trade unionists (I'm being deliberately vague here because they trawl the web in search of mentions of their activities).

Like I said, there's much to be done.

I live in Bristol. It probably is an issue, but I'm an insular cat in a bubble microcosm, so I don't actually seem to notice any of said issues, as I done stated.
I just tend to avoid people and their beefs really so I don't bare them too many thoughts.

I'd read about Ladyfest before this feature, and talked to people (including my friend Maya who's been mentioned in this thread and is in the feature) about it.
The info I'd got told me it was good to have this happening, that it has a really positive effect, that it changes people and situations for the better, creates an alternative to traditional systems and practices, makes people question things and themselves, and provides communities, platforms, resources and support that otherwise wouldn't exist.
It's great to see Plan B giving it some attention.

I haven't experienced it beyond that so I can't say whether it should change or not.

On a related note: in the Rolo Tomassi feature, I'd like to have seen the interview explore/cover more of the bit about "...There are songs about the mistreatment of the opposite sex. There were things happening around us with our friends that neither of us liked and which we wanted to write about."

Isn't the exclusion of either gender in a discussion, forum, space, regressive, rather than progressive?

I don't think so, no. Depends on the context.

Do you have an example?

Barry - I think as long as women feel it necessary to group together as women to discuss issues that affect them, or to express themselves creatively in a way they perhaps don't feel able to in mixed environments, then it is necessary, as far as I'm concerned. Rather than being regressive, I would hope that the things achieved at such events actually contribute towards progression in the long run, in inspiring and enabling women, but also in demonstrating the existence and strength of alternative cultural structures and traditions, and also the cultural and societal forces that make women feel that they want/need those alternatives.

As CarryBagMan very rightly points out upthread: "I think a lot of men don't realise how gendered their thinking often is, and it may well be useful to point that out now and again." I absolutely agree - and if an all-female cultural event goes towards pointing that out, and making both men and women consider how entrenched their attitudes towards gender might be, and provokes discussion and hopefully action about it, then I consider that to be progressive.

Well, White Hotel gave a few examples above, and would probably be better at explaining the whys and whens.

In many situations, and particularly in musical settings such as gigs (see the Rolo Tomassi thread for discussions of moshing/slam-dancing, for example), it is important for women to be able to escape a male-dominated space and be amongst other women.

As well as the potential for these spaces to, as WH put it, "make the women involved feel safe and empowered", female only events, such as Ladyfest, can be used by women to work together, provide mutual support, and discuss issues relating to women in music in an environment free from the normal patriarchal power structures, judgments and conflict (that are particularly dominant in music culture).

In a more general way, I've always felt that, given the patriarchy present in every (or almost every - I haven't counted) aspect of our lives, these spaces are extremely valuable, and desirable.

Sorry if I botched my explanation of that.

EDIT: Well, as I expected, someone else said it better than I could. Ignore mine, read Frances'.

Isn't that based on a generalisation of the opinions, reactions, behaviour, of the other gender? And as such exactly the kind of dynamic that we should be working towards deconstructing.

I'd say that, rather than a generalisation about men, it's more a recognition that our culture is still structured along lines of gender in a way that is restrictive or exploitative of women. And this is particularly true of music culture.

Barry - In some cases, perhaps, but it's often based on experience - experience of prejudice, exclusion, or just ommission, all of which can be pretty demoralising. Either way (and god, we could argue that all day, whether the restrictions women feel are 'real' or perceived, or a mixture of both, but I'm not gonna, sorry), my point is that this dynamic that you mention is possibly best addressed, deconstructed, fought, whatever, by people who feel strong and able and inspired to do so. If they gain these tools via a women-only workshop, then I see this as positive, extremely so. And I think such an outcome would potentially be positive for men, too.

It's a really old argument. Ultimately, feminism benefits from understanding both how sexism works against women and how gender norms undermine, limit and oppress men, women and trans people. Ladyfest has historically been primarily about the former, because the music business discriminates against women in very direct ways, while also giving a ton of gender leeway to men. So while men have made brilliant and necessary contributions to LDF all over the world, I still don't think there's any 'should' about including them; the work of dismantling restrictive gender norms together as men, women and trans people might sometimes more comfortably sit elsewhere, you know?

It takes time, when you're working in a pervasively sexist environment, to undo the behaviours and thought patterns that grow from that, and having women-only space can be both a shortcut to that and a shorthand FOR that, a statement of intention: 'this is a space we want to make safe from sexism and, ultimately, productive, for this small period of time'.

I should also add: the way this thread has gone is, for me, an example of why women-only events and workspaces might be really necessary. Having to deal with 'What about men?' and 'Does sexism really exist?' and 'Isn't women-only space sexist?' every single time Ladyfest is mentioned is one cogent reason why women-only space is a really refreshing change.

Also: without dropping them in it, there are women who post on this board, who have chosen not to post in this thread, who are PMing me saying things that they don't want to say here, because they don't want to have to do stuff like prove sexism exists, or answer to accusations of sexism for supporting the idea of women-only space. I think that speaks volumes.

Edit: I'm not saying that men shouldn't post about this, at all - just making the same point as CarryBagMan: often power dynamics are invisible to those who benefit from them. And that, believe me, is the charitable version.

That sucks. I'm really sorry if my attempt to discuss the role of men in LDF stopped people posting. I guess I thought it was a relevant issue and it wasn't meant to squeeze out the discussion of other topics - that isn't usually how these threads work - people usually just weigh in and ignore the stuff they want to ignore.

So sorry to anyone who felt pushed out. Maybe we should start this thread again, or maybe this simply isn't the right space in which to discuss these issues, which is a shame, but there you go.

Seriously? I know the thread got derailed but I doubt anyone would have been called out to 'prove' sexism exists. I know it's a long standing criticism of Ladyfest that it's sexist (see: Dudefest above) but that argument's so tired and idiotic that it can be comfortably ignored, at least on this board.

It saddens me to think that anyone would have been put off posting in this thread for those reasons as I fear any impression of animosity or lack of understanding is an echo of previous battles and not the result of what's actually been written here. Although saying that, I'm more than willing to believe that I'm missing trigger words - having read this from a male perspective.

Yes, seriously. Posts claiming that LDF is no longer necessary and that the shoe is now on the other foot call for responses defending women's perceptions of sexism in the music business. And as Frances said, we're not gonna spend our time trotting out our experiences of sexism to justify our perceptions to a male perspective.

It's tiring. It's depressing. It happens every time you talk about Ladyfest.



One would have hoped so.



As above, I don't think it's about animosity: I've never been one to believe that men are threatened by women's work and seek to undermine it. I've always chosen the institutional version. But there's such a strange sense of complaint and aggrievedness to some of the posts above, as there often seems to be when women-only space or work is discussed. And as you've said, when you encounter that all the time, it gets annoying - though I don't share your view that the women who are seeing this thread as alienating are simply responding to sexism elsewhere in their lives.

I kinda' meant previous battles over Ladyfest. I wouldn't be so presumptuous to delve into peoples lives.

I still think the Plan B forum is a bit of a safe-space and I can't imagine what's written above would put people off - but I'll have to point to not only my male view but my belligerent nature to explain that one. Guess I just want to see people fight for this stuff all the time and don't take into account the fatigue involved in all of this.

Male privilege FTW...or something

As WH said, maybe we should take this all (including my own blabbing) as a rather neat illustration of why female-only spaces are needed.

In which case, we can see the problems arising from a mixed-sex/gender discussion space.

But could we not try and move on from this, then, move beyond any issues which people are tired of discussing (i.e. most of the above), and discuss other LDF issues in a productive way? Seems worth a try.

It's a counterbalance - a redressing of the general imbalance that exists already. The dynamic exists temporarily, in isolation, and without total exclusivity, and has value in terms of the benefits it generates for those involved and empowered, no?

The things I do like about ladyfest is the automony of the idea, the fact different groups of people in different geographies can set up and create there own ladyfest. And the placement and dedication to good workshops, discussion panals, art and film, alongside music in a festival.

Personally, exclusivity to counter another form of exclusivity just doesn't make sense.

Ladyfest isn't totally exclusive of males though. Strawman.

It's not about the absence of males, it's about the overwhelming presence of females.

I've still always found it rather seperatist though, (if 'separatist' is a word). And that's what I find really frustrating.

It's not about you. Let it go.

i think maybe people are being too readily (and needlessly) affronted here - like boney says, almost all ladyfest events are open to both sexes.

a better way to look at it, i think, is to acknowledge that sometimes private meetings - for any group, be it a family, a business, whatever - are more useful, open and encouraging of solidarity for those most concerned and directly involved than public ones.

are those who are saying ladyfesters shdn't be allowed to have exclusive events also saying other groups shd be forced to throw open their doors regardless of how appropriate or counterproductive that wd be..? shd we at Plan B be made to have our editorial meetings where people can see us (and make unasked-for suggestions/corrections)? and if so...um...why? can't you just trust that it's more useful for us to do it this way..?

i don't think there's genuine malice in this thread, but i do find it difficult to empathise with the wounded pride which welled up - we're all of us switching between private and public networks all the time, for all kinds of reasons...

That's an excellent analogy K. When I first moved to Glasgow and checked out the Ladyfest events I was slightly disappointed that the zine workshops etc weren't open to all, but I understood that it was ladyfest and that there would be other events I could get involved in at some point. Indeed, why not organise your own event? If Ladyfest can do it, why can't everyone else? Certainly the Glasgow Ladyfests have had a very positive impact on the city's DIY music scene. They brought some amazing bands over, helped develop networks, and generally speaking, inspired a lot of different people to do their own thing. I hope they do another one soon!

Women-only feminist pop-culture events have been the target of anger from men since they began: the early Riot Grrrl conventions were subject to demonstrations outside their women-only self-defence classes (!), riot grrrl bands faced utter hostility when they either asked men to move out of the pit or played women-only shows, and Ladyfests have, as Dan points out, dealt with Dudefest-type reactions over and over. It seems that not only are some men unable to recognise the exclusion that women experience within the music business and music culture, they are also unable, even for a few events on a few days a year, to give women the space to address that exclusion.

Again, like Dan, I hadn't expected those views to be replicated here. I'm not sure why not, since this is a very male-dominated discussion space. But I'm still a bit disappointed, not to mention a bit bored and a bit grossed out. You know, I really didn't want to have to be a bitch (/harridan/nag/PC shrew) about it, I'm supposed to go: oh, OK, this isn't hostility, it's just people (don't say men. don't say men) not grasping the history of the issue. But reading back over this thread - this thread that's supposedly about a feminist women's cultural phenomenon -, like kick, I'm mystified by this sense of aggrievedness and victimhood that pervades some of the comments about the exclusion of men from LDF. So how about: IT'S NOT FOR YOU. How about: YOU DON'T GET IT. And how about: WE WILL DECIDE FOR OURSELVES.

going back to BITR's comments about London Ladyfest (earlier this year), i was aware of it in advance, and not so won over by its line-up - it seemed to be mostly larger bands imported in.

i'm not doubting any of said bands' belief in the cause or anything - and see that using such names probably meant for really good fund-raising - but the part of Ladyfest UK i'm most interested in is the bands who've come up through it - the Ladyfest scene, if you will (they'd probs hate that).

i wonder if Ladyfest UK might start up its own label to start putting this stuff out..? is that a next step..?

the bands we focused on were Drunk Granny, Corey Orbison, The Duloks, Sky Larkin, Maya-Victoria Kjellstrand, Cooper Jones, Jean Genet, Printed Circuit, The Rayographs, Sophie's Pigeons...

fans of the above..? anyone we missed..?

That's interesting, because I didn't really get that impression so much -- on the night I went, I think I saw about four or five UK bands and three new / unknown-to-me US bands...

What I thought was maybe more interesting about the line up this time around (whilst I don't want to drag the discussion back to all the dreary arguments above) was the number of male msuicians taking part - Ladyfest 2002 was pretty much all-female, but this year's one featured Comenechi (50% male), Das Wanderlust and Kasms (both primarily male bands with female singers/leaders) and Matt & Kim (essentially a male singer/songwriter with an - admittedly kick-ass - female drummer).....

I don't have particularly strong opinions on this trend either way so long as the music is good and the spirit is appropriate to the occasion, but it seems to raise an interesting question re: as the Ladyfest aesthetic has become more established, are the organisers perhaps seeking out acts who seem to have a more feminist/lady-friendly *ethos*, rather than those who simply happen to be 100% female? And is this a good, open-minded way to approach things, or a detrimental, aesthetically limiting one that could end up tieing the events down further to certain post-riot grrl scenes/sounds, rather than embracing the wider world of female creativity?

I dunno - what do y'all think?

I think as long as the focus is on female musicians and female led bands then it's fine.
If you were to impose a 100% female rule, you'd exclude a lot of acts whose feminist credentials aren't in doubt - the Gossip for example.
And although it's not one of the more important aspects of Ladyfest I do think it's positive for male musicians to be exposed to female run events and be shown another model. My old band, which was 50% female and led by a woman, were asked to play Edinburgh Ladyfest last year. Unfortunately we couldn't make it.
It's important that it's female led though - you don't want bands where it's three blokes with a token girl on bass.
So I think they've got it about right.
A far more pressing issue, one raised by the Duloks in the feature, is encouraging non-whites to participate.

I really liked the feature on Ladyfest, it was one of the best things I've read in Plan B for ages. I was involved in organising Ladyfest newcastle and although I've been aware of a lot of the other ones, it was only Ladyfest London this year that I attended (and then only in the daytime).
At our event, we had men attending/performing in some of the bands and there were a couple of guys involved in the organising. And I know other Ladyfests have had things like workshops on men and feminism. As someone else said it isn't about an absence of men, it's about a prescence of women.
Personally I think some of the criticisms of Ladyfest are valid --- for an event that's supposed to represent the diversity of female creativity then a lot of the bands are quite similar in sound/background.
It's now nearly 10 years since the first Ladyfest so I would love it if someone did a book celebrating the history of Ladyfest and all the great events that have happened around the world.

That would be great, actually. If anyone's after releases by some of the bands mentioned, a lot of the smaller queer Ladyfest bands were on the Homocrime label, which arose out of the queercore-focused Homocrime events that ran from 2003-6. I think Everard Records manage that now.

I was at the final event - Nomocrime - and that had a very Ladyfesty lineup:

Bare Knees | Lyndsey Cockwell | Ghost Mice
Lianne Hall | Truly Kaput | Vase | Winston Echo | 123s | Dempster Dumpmaster | Dragula | Drunk Granny | Humousexual | Husbands | Jean Genet
Sleeping States | Smartypants | Valerie | Unskinny Bop

Female led?? Do you mean with a female singer? So what you're saying is that bands with 3 males and 1 female on bass shouldn't play but its ok for bands with 3 males and 1 female singing? What's the difference?

I should have worded that better. Does look a bit prescriptive. Female led - not strictly the singer, but the main creative force. But then that can be difficult to define. So let's just say the primary focus should be on women.
Anyway, it's not for me to say what should and shouldn't be!

Can we please not go over this ground yet again?

Fair enough.

So what are people's Ladyfest highlights from over the years?