Plan B magazine

what did people think of the feature? what are peoples' experiences of Ladyfest in general? shd it continue as is, or does it need to change for a changing world?

i liked the article as usual with petra. wasn't hugely aware of ladyfest as a movement before reading it but i like plenty of the bands associated with it and mentioned in the article. was chuffed to see duloks get a bit of plan b love. they're lovely peeps and very entertaining live. unless you're vodka volauvent. heh.

I thought the ladyfest feature in Plan B was an excellent read. Can't be much more specific than that as it's nigh on a month since I read it, but it was highly informative stuff, and it was a great decision to focus on the views, positive and negative, of people who've been involved, and to look at things from different angles, rather than write a generic "yay for Ladyfest" piece.

For my part, I've been a fan/supporter of Ladyfests ever since I first became aware of the concept, both as a fan of female-led bands and a feminist (insofar as a straight male is able to claim to be such without getting laughed off-stage).

I went to the London Ladyfest back in 2002 (well, two days of it anyway - popped up the road on the third day to see Patti Smith at the Union Chapel, along with many other attendees I suspect), and had a great time watching various awesome bands, buying fanzines and 7"s, and generally feeling all righteous and androgynous and naively enthusiastic.

Zoom forward a few years, and I went to one day of the Ladyfest at The Underworld earlier this year too, and saw The New Bloods, Comenechi, Matt & Kim and some others - it was a great night music-wise, but I couldn't help but feel the venue and the high ticket prices left the atmosphere slightly lacking perhaps.... I also couldn't help but note that this one didn't seem to get much press, or a mention in Plan B's Ladyfest timeline, so not sure if there's anything in particular going on with that, or whether it was just me.

I guess that from my POV, attending these (and various Ladyfest-affiliated gigs and fundraisers in-between) is primarily a musical happening, as obviously aforementioned straight-maleness means it's not really my place to get involved with the workshops or more active politics/networking side of things (not a complaint - that's ok), but it's always great to get a sense of some decent DIY creative stuff going on in the background to any gig/festival, not to mention a sense of purpose, shared values and inclusivity between everyone present, and that always comes across pretty strongly at Ladyfest gigs, which is cool.

So, er, yeah - that's probably a long enough post for now I feel.

Just to say, don't see how anyone could laugh at the concept of a male feminist without themselves being laughed at. And that would be silly - two people just standing laughing at each other. What a waste of time.

Ideally speaking yes, and my comment in brackets there is slightly tongue in cheek, as I've learned that proclaiming myself a feminist can provoke some pretty odd & unwelcome reactions from both men and women, most of whom I'm sure would share my beliefs if I stated them in a slightly different fashion - I think 'feminist' is a bit of a loaded term for many... but that's probably a matter for a whole other thread I guess.

Just wanted to discuss this point. What role do straight males have to play in Ladyfest, if any? Is their involvement actively discouraged; does nobody know what to do with them; or is it just that hardly any straight males turn up to take part in the more activist side of things?

I've worked in women's rights campaigning in the past, and so I'm aware of the myriad issues surrounding the involvement of straight men in women's rights and transgender rights activism - it's a delicate business. But I'd be interested to know what people's opinions are on this.

Men can be feminists, and so it would seem right that there should be some space for them to be involved in Ladyfest and the like.

It's a complicated term, for sure, but I don't think it should be considered much different from proclaiming yourself "a liberal" or "a humanist" or whatever. There's always going to be a spectrum of positions under these umbrella terms. I think the real problem is that people don't recognise the diversity of feminism and feminists. Which is a bit of a problem because, as I've said before, it's an "ideology" which revolves around issues of identity, and so trying to narrow the definition creates obstacles for the cause(s), IMO.

Well at the 2002 Ladyfest at least, the daytime courses/workshops were women-only, so I've taken my cue from that really.

As you say, it's a pretty delicate issue, but personally I'm happy to acknowledge that on a practical level, there's not much I'd be able to add to, say, a workshop on abortion rights except to nod in general agreement, and the concept of events designed to encourage female writing/art/music-making could quickly become farcical if they let the boys join in.

Obviously there shouldn't be any problem with men working to promote women's rights causes in a wider context, but specifically in terms of Ladyfest, there seem to be plenty of good folks already on hand to take care of the organisation, so I've not felt the need to barge in, although I'd be happy to take part if my participation were ever needed for whatever reason.

We didn't miss this off the timeline for any reason rather than a shortage of space, and ultimately I thought it made more sense to lose 2008 stuff than chop out a bit of history. It wasn't to do with anything about the event itself.

Fair enough - vague & questioning accusation withdrawn!

I think it's about picking the spaces for participation that would be useful for men to be involved in. As you said, it might not be that useful for men to attend a workshop on female writing/art/music etc. At the same time, though, I think some input from straight male perspectives isn't necessarily a bad thing, even if it's just in order to provoke/maintain debate.

But there are obviously areas in which straight men could or should be involved. Around issues of sexual or gender-based violence, for example, it's vital that straight men be involved at some level, given that they are the demographic predominantly responsible for said violence.

I could imagine similar value coming from men's involvement of discussions of women in the media. Sexualised images of women are aimed at straight men, so they're involvement and understanding of the issues is vital.

But I'd be interested to hear from anyone who's been involved in Ladyfests in the past, or similar, what their thoughts are on this?

Those are good points actually, yes - but again, I'd feel completely out of my depth were I to turn up uninvited to try to represent my gender/sexuality in such discussions, and am probably the wrong person for that job anyway, for all manner of reasons!

As I say, the political side of Ladyfest events definitely give the impression of being run by women / for women, and I'm happy enough to go along with that, unless I were specifically invited to think otherwise and take part.... which I guess might be an area for future development, as requested in K's opening post?

No worries, just thought I'd clarify! As I'm sure Petra will be the first to tell you, we could easily have done 20 pages on Ladyfest...

I don't quiiiiiiiite agree with the whole thing.
I know that it starts from a good cause, but in these days it shouldn't be necessary, and I think it does less good than it should/could

trying not to offend anyone with that, I mean...

I don't care what's in yr jockeys be it penis, vagina or sandwich, as long as you're kickin' out tite jamns, that's what's important, and I just don't think an issue needs to be made of it.

Hmm... I've just sounded like an utter twat, I've got morning brain and can't put it much better than this.

Ahh goddamnit, and by that I don't want to imply in the slightest that anyone involved should stop putting on shows or playing...

Doctor Face: But it IS still an issue. I'm sure people with more first-hand experience can elaborate more interestingly and clearly on this, but it would seem obvious to me that we (as a society) haven't yet achieved equality for women or LGBT people in the music industry, and that there is still work to be done.

Whether it's the country's most popular music magazine proclaiming that some women can "still rock a crowd when [they]'re wearing stilettos", while simultaneously relegating such women from the cover in favour of Matthew Bellamy's face; or the overlap between women in music and the portrayal of women in the wider media, it seems clear that there are still issues to resolve.

Thankyou.
I don't step much out of my own little world, the people who are in it are all super-cool, so I forget about the ones who can be jerks.

I didn't mean to be patronising or anything, but as much as I wish there wasn't gender discrimination in music, it seems obvious to me that there is. Hope I didn't offend.

No sir you didn't, that was a genuine thankyouse.
I too would love for there to be no gender discrimination in music, or anything for that matter...
Sometimes though I've found the stiletto on the other foot, at some more...erm.... hardcore (not the music) shows, I've felt a bit ostracised (sp?) and it felt a bit like a hate rally (I have been at a gig where somebody said they wanted to kill all "straight white men"... gee thanks...) - and I know that's not the agenda of most people...

Ach, sorry, I'm not putting my thoughts or words together very well here, I'm not used to debating or discussing things apart from music and molluscs.

Well, while I can understand the need to vent frustration at the white male establishment, that seems a bit over the top. I can't imagine it was said in all seriousness, though.

Funnily enough (and not to derail the thread in my trademark way), I've just been reading about incitement to violence legislation and how it affects speech like that. If you'd called the police, you probably could have got that person locked up

Back on thread, though, I'm not saying that straight men should be involved in all aspects of Ladyfest and similar events/organisations. Where straight men are involved, it should largely be with the approval of the women involved. But I think there definitely is a space and value to men's involvement in these things. It's not an arrogant desire to be involved and to be not be exluded (which I'm sure would motivate some straight men in that situation), but a recognition of the valuable role they can play.

I really, really want to post on this thread - I've got loads to say - but I am mega busy today...ironically, one of the things busying me up is that I have to leave on time so as to work on an all-female 30-piece noise project I'm, er, working on at the moment.

But as someone currently involved in a large-scale female musical project, I've been thinking about this stuff a lot, and really need to start talking about it too! LATERS.

I can only speak of my own experience putting on the Brighton Ladyfest in 2005 but while my participation (as a straight male) wasn't actively sought out it was welcomed with open arms when offered. I attended an early planning meeting and was so inspired I signed up straight away to do whatever I was asked.

I was always concious of the gender issues and perhaps over compensated by staying behind the scenes more and facilitating, rather than driving the whole event, but I fundamentally believed in what Ladyfest tries to do and I've never met a more inspiring bunch of people than those involved.

We had many many people play the whole 'it's not necessary' card (and even a proposed Dudefest at one point) but you'd have to be hideously naive (no offence to Doctor Face) to think that there's anything approaching equality in music. Having subsequently been involved in innumerable promotions for both clubs and gigs there's a pervasive impression that non-pretty-face* a-traditional
gender roles (i.e. not the keyboard player) artists have a hell of a tough time even in the promised land that is Brighton.

That was loads more than I meant to write.

Ladyfest = good thing in principal / up to the organisers in practice.

*no offence to pretty artists

Is that with Maya? If so I might be filming that.

If it was with Maya that's super relevant as she was involved with LFB too as well as being an all-round awesome human being.

ah, it's all ok now. I made Mira carrot and ginger soup.

I agree with what Mira Dulok said though in the interview about diversifying, those Ladyfests do tend to be white indie heavy.

D_c_n, no offence taken, I am naiive! I just thought that everything was ok these days, but looking through my tiny telescope world was I, not at the general world.

Yeah, that's the one! It is indeed mega relevant, but my head's not together enough today to discuss all the things it makes me want to discuss. I will return to this, honest.

I didn't know it was gonna be filmed, but that's good news if so.

In the meantime, let me just say I thought the Ladyfest feature was awesome, although I wished it was maybe a bit longer - which highlighted for me the lack of documentation of riot grrrl/post-riot grrrl culture - or at least, like, "official" documentation. The feature's had great feedback from friends who've read it, too.

There's a Ladyfest doc knocking about from one of the stateside ones that (ex-Plan B) Beth might have access to? I filmed a load of stuff in the run-up to LFB but criminally never got round to editing it.

I agree though, there's definitely a book / film in the history of just Ladyfest in the UK let alone it as an international movement.

EDIT: P.S. the filming was just something me and Maya offhand-idly talked about a while back. Nothing official although I'd love to do it if the logistics work out.

I was really happy to work on the Ladyfest article and to work with Jesse, Beth and Lauren on it too - quite a diifferent way of working and one that reflected well on the finished piece, I think. Lauren and I worked particularly closely together. I only wish I'd managed to liaise better with Beth and Jesse.

Like Frances, when the piece was finished all I could think of was what hadn't been said, what stories had been lost, and how much I wanted to collect them all, to show just how diverse Ladyfest has been, how many different perspectives there are, and have been from the very beginning.

The politics of Ladyfest are so deeply-felt and contested, both within and outwith the movement, that capturing aims and experiences is really tough. I share Beth's concerns that Ladyfest has failed too often to address race and cultural issues - I think it's the process and the design of the Fests that has to change, rather than the lineup, if that's to be addressed - but I strongly disagree that women-only bills or women-focussed events might be counterproductive or no longer needed. To me it's self-evident that within the context of the extreme sexism of the music business, Ladyfests have been empowering for the women that have successfully participated in them. Identity politics, however, outside of feminism, have meant that not all women have felt able to participate, that's pretty clear.

I think what's most hopeful about Ladyfests, in terms of how to resolve some of tthese issues, is their malleability - that 'Ladyfest' is a nebulous concept owned very temporarily by ad-hoc collectives across many different locations and cultures. I hope there will one day be an opportunity to capture the incredible amount of learning that happens when these collectives come together - so that outside of Ladyfests, women can access some of the good stuff that Ladyfest builds - and sometimes leaves behind.

I believe Miss AMP was working on such a thing. Not sure what the current status of it is. You can find out more at:

http://www.theriotproject.com/

Didn't she get gazumped by the other Riot Grrrl book?

I don't know - I asked her about it a couple of times but never heard what had happened to it.

It would be a shame.

Maybe it's something that could work well as an online project - ditto Ladyfest.

I think she felt that to be the case, yeah - but my response to that is, who says there can only be one book about it? I mean, no one would object to there being more than one book on, say, Joy Division, Sonic Youth, The Fall, or anything else in the 'canon'.

Obviously I can't answer for Amp but I hope that other accounts appear, because - like any history - there are multiple viewpoints, multiple ways of telling and loads more voices than any one book can encapsulate.

I think to be perfectly honest that's something that shoud depend on the circumstances of each LDF and on the wishes of the women planners. There are plenty of places around the world where I'm fairly sanguine that the participation of men in feminist activity in general might not be either useful or welcome.

Some things are lost by not including men in some feminist activity - but some things are gained too. I'm not sure that including men should necessarily be an aim of LDF.

I think we're on the same page here.

Like I said, men can/should be involved where it's useful, and it's up to the women leading these kinds of organisations and events to decide whether, when and how to involve men in their activities. All I'd hope is that they do recognise the value of men's involvement and input in certain aspects of their work. It's undeniable that there's a (understandable) resistance amongst many feminists/women's rights activists to involve men, and it's sometimes not based on the most productive reasoning.

I don't think we disagree on this.

I'm not so sure about that, actually. I don't see that there's any 'should' about LDF giving consideration to men's issues or how to engage with men. If the women planners think it's important, then yes - but if they don't, then that's fine. And there is easily enough to do without worrying about how a LDF is going to involve and affect men.

There are hardly any women posting on this thread - doesn't anyone else have anything to say?

I guess maybe I'm being a bit self-contradictory. I agree with this, and have said it a couple of times above. I think where I've made things confusing is by saying they "should" involve men where it's useful / valuable. I think, depending on the issue and context, men's involvement is important (say, on the issues of portrayals of women in the media), but what's more important is women's ownership of events like LDF, so I can go spit up a rope basically.

I would hope that where the decision is made to not involve men, though, it wouldn't be based on prejudice, which presumably goes without saying.

Oh, and what do you mean by "men's issues"? I don't think I said anything about incorporating men's issues.

To make things a bit clearer:



That would depend on the aims of the workshop. If the workshop were, for example, aiming to provide a safe space for women to engage around these issues without feeling derided or shouted down, then including men might not be a primary aim.



At an event like LDF - which is a community event - that kind of participation might not be remotely appropriate. I organise events and meetings around DV all the time and would NEVER arrange a meeting where both survivors and perpetrators got to 'debate' the issues of DV together.



Again, what you're missing is the value of having women-only discussions about stuff. Things happen very differently when those kind of power dynamics are removed and many women find that empowering. On the scant occasions that women get to remove those barriers for themselves, why should they instead be worried that they 'should' include men?

I think you're misinterpreting what I'm saying, to be honest. In each quote you use I qualify my opinion to ensure that it doesn't seem like I'm advocating men's involvement across the board, or in situations where the organisers would deem it inappropriate.

I spent a year working on a campaign to involve men in stopping violence against women, which involved working extensively with a number of women's rights and DV groups. I'm well aware of the complexities, fears and problems of involving men inappropriately and the dangers of undermining the work of the women involved by doing so. It feels very much like you're attributing opinions to me that I haven't expressed, and I just want to be clear and considered on these points.



And neither would I.



I really don't think I am missing that at all. I absolutely recognise that creating women-only spaces is imperative in situations like this. I never said otherwise. And I certainly didn't mean to imply that they should involve men where it's not appropriate or desired by the women involved.



I don't think you need to get that frustrated. The thread's only been in existence for a few hours and I thought this was an interesting issue, given the experiences recounted above. But I'll stay away from this thread from now on.

Really sorry if I've trod on anyone's toes, or put anyone off posting here with the above discussion. I really didn't mean to offend or upset or exclude.

I'll stay away from the thread now, and WH - feel free to delete my comments.